My God v. Your God

But, just b/c I'm too lazy right after having written so much already...

Well, while I'm asking the guy for permission, I'll give you the background details of how it came to this...

My God that's a long story...so we'll just tune back in where Allen's past friend Sandy had found him on the internet via Facebook. No biggie, the past is the past, so as long as she isn't coming around asking me to 'save her' again...the logo tattooed right where it counts will serve as an "I sincerely tried' if nothing else.

Anywho, so I'm not sure what Sandy's doing for money these days, but she represents a comical paradox...because here I am minding my own business...when the wakes of other peoples' status updates start making me go WTF?

So, Sandy says "Hi Allen...blah, blah, blah, love the logo, thanks, whatever..." Something along those lines. I say "Hi Sandy. It looks like you're doing alright, hope everything is well with you and Jamie (her son). Take care!" Blah, blah, blah...something like that.

These days it looks like Sandy's life is financially well-off...back in the fastlane...I presume the really fast lane where she was a professional sex object before...and her son is nowhere in sight. Well, like I said, I tried. And I didn't have to because I got lied into the entire scenario to begin with. What kind of girl tells you she's a 'survivor' and makes you watch Taxi before trying to move in?

Ha. Yeah. Well, as if to add insult to injury, apparently Sandy is doing quite well as a party girl these days...but I could care less, because that one token attempt to save her was just my 'Jesus' experience' when God had literally thrown the beyond-worse-case scenario possible on my lap when I was at rock bottom and weakest just to see if I could handle it.

Well, I did handle it, but I failed miserably at saving Sandy...but that's because Sandy didn't want to be saved, she just wanted to use me for my resources. Welcome to LA! One week she's looking for a normal job and going to church meetings, the next minute she's in Vegas with a black pimp named Kisu because he promised to buy her some Nike Shox.

I shit you not.

Yeah, so that whole experience set back the recovery clock...again...but that was merely at the time...and it was a token attempt...and this is ancient history now...so as long as I end up alright, and she's alright with whatever her life is, and her son and hopefully his future ends up alright, then good, because it's no longer my problem...but isn't it funny the crazy places my logo might just show up?

Wow.

Anyway, that was just to almost explain how this scenario came about, I haven't even got that far yet. To make a long story short, although I don't hang out with Sandy or anything, on Facebook it shows you when your friends join groups etc.

My oh my don't I have an interesting mix?

For a reason.

But the reason this matters is because on one hand you watch Sandy living the party girl life with all the embarrassment that carries someone of my historical caliber, and on the other hand you see her subscribing to things like 'Jesus Daily' while declaring herself to be religious.

Errr...screech.

(facepalm)

Timeout.

Have you never heard the saying "nervous as a whore in church"? WTF? If your religion doesn't stand for anything it says it stands for, then really, what good is it? If it doesn't stop people from doing the things that are destructive to themselves and/or others, then really, what good is it? If your religion doesn't protect the innocent from the predators, then really, what good is it?

Well, luckily the law takes care of a few of those.

The selfish desire do whatever and think it will get forgiven on the next level just because you think it will? What's fair? Seriously, what if when your life flashes in front of your eyes it's just like a computer program scanning the information before you get judged...by God? My God = what's responsible for life, so yeah, that works.

Do you really think denial is that high on God's list of Heaven-entry-gaining things?

You think you deserve Heaven eh? Well, have you been a good person while here on Earth? I mean, it's only far right?

Plus, either way, you're still debating things that don't exist, so everyone going through the motions as hypocrites is just a little...silly...don't you think?

Sorry to get everyone involved, but...

(insert YellowCard)

With all due respect, WTF?

On one front we're battling the gay's slightly ill-logic, and on another front I'm debating the cost effectiveness of space for all the rocket scientists with their heads in the stars, and on the other hand I sign up for Jesus Daily out of morbid curiosity about the completely hypocritical behavior of the triple-digit chick and how she rationalizes it with 'God'...

...next thing you know I'm actually reading the Jesus' Daily entries because it is perfectly allows me to hear and deconstruct the rhetoric in bite-size pieces...

Next thing I've gone and ruffled the feathers of some 'Old Christianity' believers...and now I'm waiting on Jeff's approval to post it so it can explain for itself instead of me having to write more and paraphrase in ways that probably don't do the original already paraphrased conversation justice.

Jeff's Facebook page says he's a lawyer.

So I found entertaining his argument on the validity of religion especially interesting. Actually not religion, I found it interesting because the only religion he references and therefore believes in is just his (Christianity).

WTF?

Yes, I know. I have the same problem. lol

My views on religion = WTF?

Because there is just so much out there, obviously it can't all be right, especially the parts that don't make sense. When one takes something literally that was written to be taken FIGURATIVELY...Houston we have a problem.

Lucky Bart the rocket scientist/funny guy glady let me repost my micro-debate with him when I critiqued the non-Earth-centered technological research funding...so hopefully Jeff will follow suit...especially since I come to find out that Bart is religious also.

Do I count as being religious just because I was indoctrinated with a story as a child and went through the motions because everyone else was doing it even though I didn't believe the miracle parts...at all?

Santa who?

Yeah, I'll show you a miracle.

That our society is still sane. Or is it?

9/11? Ahhh!!! Terrorists!!! Help me Jesus!!! Why did God just let them put through a rather evil-looking bailout? WTF do you mean he's programmed everyone to not stand up for what's right and be passive living in a common delusional dream state?

What do you mean this project is designed to be a comical demonstration of the same mechanisms within the human mind?

Damn. That's deep.

Anyway, here's the conversation. I'll assume he's friendly and fair-minded enough to say yes, either way, Jesus is OK with it, and that's apparently all that really matters in the end.

Brace yourselves kids...

_________________________________

Honoring parents/loving neighbors
Between You and Jeff C

Jeff C
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Today at 9:43am
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The difficulty with deciding who is honorable is that we overlook the fact that we ourselves are not honorable. In God's eyes, we are all just sinners, no one more honorable than the next. Viewed as such, the bibles message becomes timeless. We can honor our parents and love our neighbors while despising their acts. Forgive me if this intrusion was not welcomed. God's peace be yours through out Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Allen Simpson
Today at 3:49pm
Hi Jeff,

I don't consider it intrusive at all, the entire point of sharing my thoughts is to encourage healthy debate.

That said, why can't we honor our parents and love our neighbors without bringing God and Jesus into it?

So, your interpretation of the Bible suggests that the widely varying degrees of righteousness in human behavior are irrelevant (according to God or whatever)?

Sorry. I don't agree with that.

I don't honor people, I honor honorable behavior.

Yes, I am not perfect, but the difference is, I try and I care about others as well as myself. But which ones are worth caring about? The ones trying to take advantage of you? I don't lie to people to take advantage of them, and quite frankly I despise people who do.

My God doesn't see those two opposing mindsets equally, for if he did, he would be protecting selfish, 'evil' mindsets and all the pain and harm they cause. That ain't cool.

You must be an intelligent man because you're an attorney, so what percentage of the Bible do you believe is fact and what percentage fiction?

What do you think you would think/behave like as a human being had you never been exposed to what I presume is Christianity? What if you were the identical person genetically, but you were born in Iran, or China instead?

Would you still be seeing the world through a prism that labels things as you do?

Historically my track record proves I'm an exceptionally good person (sacrificing of myself to help/save others to a level that actually proved to be quite regrettable), but it had nothing to do with religion, just in being a person that looks past myself and genuinely cares about the well being of others.

Accordingly, I take offense to a 2,000 year old political construct designed to allow the evil people of the world to take advantage of the good...and that's what you just described in claiming that "we are all sinners in God's eyes, no one more honorable than the next".

I'm sorry, but I disagree with your take on what 'God' thinks. You must be simply referring to the 'God' of the Bible, not the God I believe in that is responsible for life itself and everything else in this Universe both within and beyond our comprehension.

I guess it's just a difference of opinion in how one defines 'God'.

Personally, I believe in the truth, and that trying to get people to do the right thing by lying to them is not getting them to do the right thing for the right reasons, and therefore is a behavioral control mechanism that should have never made it as far as it has.

I'm all for being a good person, but I'm also all for identifying people who aren't being good to others and holding them accountable.

If I were Jesus, at this point I would be disgusted with what has been done in my name. If I were God, I would desperately be trying to invent a new worldwide religion for the 21st century and beyond based on technology and human behavior, not on a story written by men that thought the Sun revolved around the Earth written in another life and time.

Sorry for the long essay. I hope you don't find this too offensive.

May peace, happiness, and prosperity be with you as well!

Take care,

Allen

P.S. You'll have to forgive me, for I am a preacher, not a follower of anything I don't believe in wholeheartedly on principle or what other people tell me.

P.P.S. May I end with a quote of mine from a few weeks ago? "Just because a bunch of people believe the same thing, doesn't make it true or them sane."

P.P.P.S. You must be 'honorable', you've got a degree that says you are. It's in your title! lol ;)

Jeff C
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Today at 6:44pm
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Initially, I beleive in the God of the Bible; accordingly, any debate will be as two ships paasing in the night because it would appear that we worship different gods. The God that I worship will hold sinners accountable and I trust him to do that. I accept that some that I may deisre to view as worse sinners than me will be accepted into the same kingdom of heaven that I hope to be because they have confessed faith in the same savior. I have no problem with that simply becasue I am concerned with my relationship with God and my relationship with my fellow man. What others do is not my concern. While I would rail against injustice I can still love the man who perpetrates it for at the end of the day I am blessed with the humility to accept that in God's eyes we are all just sinners. If I were Jesus I would also be disgusted with what has been done in my name but I would also be quite pleased with some of my brthers and sisters. If I were God, I would not create a new religion first becasue, frankly, religion, does a very good job of screwing up faith and second, because I already created a new religion in my son and the world has largly rejected that so whose to say it would accept the next one. Not sure who is being lied to or where the behavioral control mechanism comes in, unless you claim the Bible to be one great lie. To which I would say that the books of the new testament represent a historical record of the events described therein, the birth, ministry, torture/death, resurrection of Christ. There is no historical evidence to counter the record contained within the Bible save for the attempts of men to discredit it based on nothing more than their own disbelief. I could accept every word of the Bible to be true or I could accept that there are bound to be errors or poetry or figure of speach. It does not matter because it is by faith that I accept the central tenant's. I find it interestng that a great portion of the history of Western Civilation that is accepted by people to be true ad accurate was recorded the same way as the history of Christianity, which the same people reject based on the manner in which it was recorded. Although I have espoused to believe every word of the Bible to be true, I now accept that that is a cop out of a greater faith that beleives even in the face of an imperfect document, if that's what it is. As to who I would be without Jesus ... I care not to delve into the evil that lives within me. I was a different person before and would be a different person without Jesus. There is nothing honorable about me. Forgive me for a less than organized response. One question, what is the foundation for the god that you worship if not the God of the people. I suspect just another one of the amorphous gods that people invent for themselves in order to avoid coming to terms with the true God of the universe. I would love to hear about your God and the miracles he has performed in the lives of men as archived in the annals of history. Please, do tell. Peace.

PS - I do not find your response offensive, I will note, however, that no Christian ever came into your church/assembly, wherever that may be, and interupted for the sake of offering a counter view. I am all for healthy debate and will defend my faith any time and any place in any format or venue; however, this particular site is a place of worship for some and I do not find your intrusion therein honorable. That said, God's peace be yours.

Allen Simpson
Today at 7:30pm
Well, like you said, two ships passing in the night because there is no point debating someone about things they simply do not choose to believe because it doesn't serve their best interest.

So, you're a 'born again' Christian eh?

Well, that explains it. I think the word is opportunistic.

Wow. I went to the Methodist church as a child and was even president of the youth group, but I became so disgusted at the hypocrisy of others, even at young age, I just couldn't buy into the b.s. anymore. As an adult, I'm actually insulted that my mother exposed me to such nonsense as a child, but that's about the extent of it.

If you believe the world was 'magic' (virgins giving birth, literary characters arising from the dead, etc.) 2,000 years ago but isn't now, then I can't argue with you...but on that same note times infinity...if/when my 'God' and religion does succeed in saving the world one day, don't worry, the TV and internet will explain in great detail to the point that you 'experience' it on a level even the current church can't compete with.

My God is Technology.

My Saviors are +ru+h and Reason.

As such, yes, Facebook could be considered a site of 'worship', but the preaching of Jesus is designed to be debated.

Humor me, and watch this series of 3 videos.

What makes you think the God of the Bible is any more real (except in your own mind) than the explanation of where He/It came from (your fellow, all-too-human man) presented in these videos?

Actually you don't have to answer that, it's just a rhetorical question.

If you're just using religion as a self-imposed brainwashing tool to escape your past, then that isn't necessarily a bad thing, but please don't have the audacity to preach your new found faith as historical fact when/if previously you were one of those people taking advantage of others.

Unlike many, I can swear on my father's grave that I am an exceptionally honorable man, so you should understand how it irks me to have the types that might have once wronged types like me claiming the protection of Jesus.

Anyway, sorry, I don't want to argue this with you, but please humor me and watch these 3 videos (10 minutes each). Then hypothetically, just hypothetically consider if they are true and the Bible is just a (largely made-up and plagiarized) story.

A magical, commonly believed story--but a story just the same.

1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNf-P_5u_Hw


2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qc-mrJf45Hg&feature=related


3

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IjAegPhQOUg&feature=related


See ya 'round the internets!

+AES
http://thewyzardproject.blogspot.com/

Allen Simpson
Today at 7:49pm
BTW Jeff...do you mind if I republish this conversation in my blog?

I figure since what we're debating is your response to my public comment on a public figure like Jesus, this fits perfectly with what I usually talk about and I arguably spent more time engaged in debate with you then writing in public this evening.

lol

Damn technology causing conversations between strangers across thousands of miles that never would have been possible prior to....the last few years?

Now there's an impressive force, God or otherwise.

;)

Let me know.

Thanks!

Allen

Jeff C
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Today at 4:16am
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No objection so long as it is understood that I do not use religion to escape my past. I place my faith in Christ for the forgiveness of those sins so that I may move past them and become a loving and useful human being. I have not escaped the past; to the contrary, it stands as a constant monument to my imperfection. That said, by accepting forgiveness of my sins through Jesus, I no longer focus on that monument and allow the resultant self-loathing to bring me to a stand still. I find it interesting that your rejection of God/Christ appears to be more accurately described as a rejection of religion. I actually fault no one for rejecting modern religious institutions; however, it is illogical to reject God due to the failings of man made institutions. What is truth?

Jeff C
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Today at 4:17am
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I will repost my original response without the errors and you are free to place it on your blog

Allen Simpson
Today at 10:42am
Fair enough. Yes, I'm not rejecting God, I'm rejecting modern man still operating on a truly archaic interpretation of God.

Truth is understanding what is going on, not just believing what one is told by someone else.

I'm not just upset with Christianity, I'm upset with all religions that remove the accurate perception of reality to the point that dangerous scenarios can exist.

I'm upset with 'bad' people much more than religious people, but I do fault religion when it isn't protecting the brand and principles it supposedly stands for. The government too. Also, I do question many of the tenants of some religions and especially scenarios when religion leads to war, suffering, and strife do to disagreements about things that don't actually exist.

i.e.:

My God is Green!

My God is Blue!

My God is Yellow!

WTF?

I try not to pick sides because my goal is to find the lowest common denominators between various belief systems to hopefully one day bring them to terms with one another, but I do realize what I'm proposing and have tried to do could be considered impossible...without the future power of technology of course.

I'm upset with Christianity being the predominant religion in America because I'm obviously the type that tries to be a good person and stand for things simply for the credit of my own actions, but Christianity instead requires one to be drawn into a ancient web of very hard to believe fairytales...and being as intelligent as I am, it's simply not an option.

The entire purpose of +he WYZARD projec+ was to find/create a God replacement when my father died and I simply couldn't subscribe to all the other more traditional definitions of what happens, but, in truth, designing constructs to try and make the world a better is something I have pondered my entire life, so it is the result of 30+ years of intense thought and observation.

The model was originally called 'Religion 1' to denote the use of logic and numbers as the universal language and "that everything is one", or at least part of the same game/life experience/world...whatever you want to call it. I consider life on Earth to be the equivalent of God's 7th grade science fair project and everything was going well...until man learned how to lie...and then use God's name to lie and take advantage of others.

Yeah, I know, it's different...but it works on all accounts.

Essentially the entire structure to take man into the next era of thought is there, it's just a matter of waiting on the technology and opportunity to implement it.

Things like the wars in the Middle East are ridiculous, and in the 21st century, religion should not be allowed to fuel the fires as it has. In America, very questionable/unfair things have been happening in regard to economic warfare in recent years, and it hurts me to see so many loyal to the Christian God being held captive instead of being united on principle to take action against those who wish to harm and oppress us.

There is too much suffering and too much evangelical b.s. on TV, and being forced to bear witness to that paradox is exceptionally frustrating. I most certainly do not want to take away the happiness of those I've met with "their heads happily in the Jesus clouds"...but when their non-reality-based belief system allows their real lives to be compromised as they blindly stand by...well, I feel almost obligated to say something.

Being passive and living in a fantasy-based reality is a good thing...until certain lines have been crossed, at which point the people should be united to prevent their oppression, but sadly I don't see that happening.

Like everyone, everything I think and do is relative and subjective. We all have different life experiences that are a combination of luck and choice, so everything I say and do is simply a product of what I've experienced prior to that to reference when making decisions.

If you read through what I presume are beginning to be a collection of my rather extensive writings, you will realize there are specific experiences and reasons behind everything I do or say. I won't say things that I can't back up, and when I feel a certain way about things, I always explain the context, background, and my own thought process and reasoning behind it.

All I ask is the same ability of others to explain themselves and their actions, although I often overestimate people.

Thanks for engaging in a civil discussion of such a deeply emotional topic and allowing me to share it.

You probably needn't worry about correcting your previous response if a simple 'hey I typed this in a hurry on my iPhone' will do. Since you're an attorney, I presumed you know how to spell speech even though you spelled it speach, and I would assume anyone reading it and your more carefully written responses would understand you know how to write/spell correctly when you're trying to.

Thanks for taking the time to explain your side of things and listening to mine (and hopefully watching the videos out of curiosity if nothing else).

Best,

AES

Jeff C
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Today at 11:59am
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Yes there was a play I saw a few years back depicting Earth as God's seventh grade science project, that interested me for awhile. I watched the video's and while I don't doubt that several of the claims therein could be refuted with a bit of research, I do note the following flaws in the progression. First, the astrological argument turns on the alignment of the stars on or about December 25; however, it is widely accepted that Jesus' birth did not occur on December 25 and could not have occured on December 25 given the timing of the Roman census and the Bible nowhere claims that his birth was on December 25. December 25 was the date chosen to celebrate his birth coinciding with preexisting pagan celebrations. In so far as December 25 is only the day chosen for celebration and not the actual date of birth, there is no grounds to compare his birth to astrological events. That said, if in fact his birth did occur on the 25th and the story of his birth matched the astrological events, I would not find it surprising that the birth of God's son was foretold in the stars that God created and that earlier civilizations, if they were earlier, created similar stories based upon the same stars. As to the claim in the second video that Jesus did not make it into the historical record, the writings of the new testament are the unrefuted historical record.

The adulteration of Christ's message begins with the first church described in Acts, when the Jewish Christians decided that the gentile Christians should only have to follow certain parts of the Jewish law, no sexual immorality, drinking blood and the like. Truth is Christ had no such requirement. You clearly seem to believe in a god but would move people away from that god in an effort to find a construct within which we can peacibly coexist. You are not upset with God so much as you ae upset with what people have done in the name of god based upon an adulterated view. I would think that the more effective construct, if thats what it is, would be to move people away from religion and religious tenants, and back towards the one true God.

My background is simply this: I have a .22 calibre bullet in my head (its in bits and pieces but 90% of it is in there) and the best that science had to offer (neurosurgeon) told my parents was that they should prepare themselves for the fact that their son was going to die or have no quality of life to speak of. When I came to three days later (LOL) and asked for a black pen and white lined paper because I had a book report due, there was no explanation other than, there are some things that can't be explained other than to tip your hat to a higher power. Three years later, the experts opined that I would be lucky to finish high school but could forget driving a car and could forget college. So college, law school and two complete bar exams four years apart later, I don't have any great difficulty believing in the "fairy tales" of the Bible. We still encouter God's "fairy tales," the only difference is that he is not openly taking credit for them. I did not choose Christianity becasue it was given to me. I stopped going to church when I was old enough to make that decision and wrestled for a great deal of time with the questions that face us all. In the end I turned to Christ not because he was what I had been taught but becasue he spoke to me and moved in my life and demonstrated his living power to me even 20 years after being shot.

At the end of the day, I doubt that you would deny the life of Jesus. Its just that denying it and searching for your replacement construct is far easier than actually coming to terms with the true God of the universe. I would wish you luck, but I don't believe in luck, so best wishes and all God's blessings. Thank you for the chance to further build and reaffirm my faith. (By all means feel free to publish this with the understanding that the spell chack is off and I'm not proofing.)
___________

Hell, I even gave him the last word. Well, as long as one can listen to all sides without getting too bent out of shape and they aren't causing harm to anyone, more power to 'em.

;)

Let me know.

Thanks!

+AES